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Old 09-30-2013, 10:42 PM   #31
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I got the best idea!

dont like it? leave! go start your own forum. You won't so just let it be and let it go. If I was the footing the bill for this site, I'd privately message the people who want to make waves and say "if you dont like it leave" plain and simple
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:09 AM   #32
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A few points that I think need to be cleared up.

This forum was not actually founded on the lackadaisical enforcement of the rules. Instead, it was founded because when .com was sold, it become nothing more than a revenue source for its new corporate owners who pushed to charge fees. This was destined to be the death of any independent innovation that the Legend community has thrived upon given the already high cost of development. They had their agenda regardless of whether it was the Legend forum, Civic forum or Yugo forum, and the well-being of the community was the least of their concerns. This forum was founded so that the culture of the Legend and its community could be saved. The enforcement of rules become less frequent because they weren't flouted as often. Some of you may remember the early 2000's when moderators were kept very busy with trying to keep things in check.

The method of moderating hasn't varied much from before as the rules of the old forum as well as the moderators were carried over to .org when the move was made. The method of recruiting moderators hasn't changed either because a key requirement has always been that the moderators be unbiased; with an even hand in the enforcement of the rules. No favorites are played, friend or otherwise.

We do allow for certain "gray area" enforcement, but in sections like the marketplace which has a very specific purpose and the rules have a very specific end, the rules will be more rigidly enforced. As mentioned before they are enforced as they are caught by the moderators or reported by you. The moderators cannot be everywhere and see everything, so if you feel that a thread requires our attention, please make use of the Report Post button.

The rules of the marketplace are getting a little more attention now because of the recent revisiting of its operation and organization. The rules were updated and everyone was asked to familiarize themselves with these rules. Among the rules is that idle conversation is not allowed within marketplace threads. This serves two purposes. First, it keeps threads clear and concise for potential buyers; so that relevant posts aren't buried amidst simple conversation. Second, it prevents any individual post from being artificially bumped to the top of the page which creates a potential issue of page hogging. Imagine if ten people kept having their threads bumped to the top by idle conversation; all new posts would very quickly get buried. Our intention is to keep the marketplace clean and organized as a place to buy and sell your items. Conversations can be conducted in OT, PM, FB or offline. Postings like GLWS, nice car, cool part, etc., are unnecessary and only contribute to clutter. Relevant posts would include posts like, "I've seen/inspected this car and can vouch for its condition", etc..

To those of you who have brought up the constitution once again, please remember that it does not apply here. Even if it did, the freedom of speech is still subject to the general rules of proper time and place. But again, it doesn't apply here. It didn't during the seven years that I was super moderator and administrator over at .com, and it doesn't here. I've said it before. It never has; it's nothing new. We provide sections for relevant topics of discussion as well as an off-topic section for discussions that don't fall within the purpose of other designated sections. We also provide a section for you to provide feedback on the functioning of the forum. We take your submissions into consideration for feasibility, but do not guarantee implementation.

The moderators don't moderate threads or hand out infractions as much as we have in the past because, for the most part, we have little cause to. However, it took several years of stringent enforcement in the early days of .com to clear up the "wild west" mentality that was prevalent then. The current culture of this forum is that of a greater amount of self moderation which makes enforcement less necessary. It certainly isn't because we've chosen to no longer enforce the rules as they will be enforced when they need to be.
Plain and simple as you put it. they should be enforced when they need to be. When its a problem. Not when the thread has 5 posts in it that were not a problem at all nor were mods asked in to police by anyone. infact op said he wanted those posts. They aren't getting out of hand.

Point is. the rules are being enforced a shit ton more then they ever have been in 8 years I've been around and its stranguling this forum way more then it should be. If you were actually around you would see this.

There is and always will be gray areas but q does a great job going by the black and white and its dragging this site down. Because its being done when it doesn't have to be, he does have an adgenda and its sole purpose is 100% rule enforcement which makes this site No longer a place ppl visit to make life long connections and friends like it used to be. its turning into shit and I for one will never sit quite to that. No one wants to visit a site were you don't even want to post because its just gonna get moved or deleted, when it wasn't a problem. At least let it slide for a day till its a problem.
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:35 AM   #33
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I really don't even mind the rule, I think it should just be enforced with some consistency.

And I understand about the mods not being able to police every single post, but let's face it, the specific thread that spawned this debate was just barely cresting two pages when it got "cleaned". A handful of threads are well over 5 pages in the FS section. You can't tell me that the mods don't notice how many pages a thread is up to at a quick glance.
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:56 AM   #34
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I find it interesting that you compare this to .com, seeing as how you are a moderator there.
True, but I get paid pretty good for my services over at .com.
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:35 AM   #35
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. If I was the footing the bill for this site,
Lou, if you were footing the bill for this site, it would be "down for maintenance" 99% of the time.
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Old 10-01-2013, 06:34 AM   #36
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Lol news to me that I don't have money? Lol according to like 95% of legend owners I'm loaded lol
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:01 AM   #37
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Alex, I've been here 10+ years and a mod for probably about 8 of those years and I've gotta say I see it very differently. The major problems we had before were:

Matt Whalen years:
-Forum reliability;
-Infighting between a few specific members (I hesitate to say trolls because they were more like strong headed guys vs each other)
-Spammers
-Usual modding (moving threads, closing threads, etc)
Fun fact - you know cursing want even allowed back then? It was filtered and auto censored!


Skyy (AW.com owner) years:
-Transitioning from outdated vb to new platform and server & transitioning to new ownership and new way of modding and doing business according to Skyy (not a bad thing)
-Trolls emerging and causing infighting between members (trolls vs everyone)
-Spammers
-Usual modding


Auto guide years:
-We at first had a seamless transition and our previous rules and way of doing business changed very little. But gradually, the corporate face started taking over and dictating new rules we had to enforce around maintaining or getting new revenue for AG. Things like not allowing certain products to be reviewed or promoted if a paying vendor offered a competing product. We were starting to become corporate security, protecting their investment.
-Trolls and infighting still
-Spammers
-Usual modding


.Org first year:
-Transitioning data, members, and servers (server reliability was a little shaky at first)
-Trolls that came over from .com and the return of previously .com permabanned trolls. They didn't last long.
-Occasional Spam
-Usual modding


Current:
-Usual modding
-Occasional spam
-Occasional infighting (between regular members...not between trolls and members which is nice...maybe we have 1 or 2 wannabe trolls, but nothing to the degree of the mentally questionable trolls of the past)
-Responding to members feedback or concerns


The type of modding we are doing and frequency of it I think is indicative of the overall vibe of the place and the members we have. Less trouble makers = less modding. As Graeme said, it's more along the line of allowing for self moderation because they mostly know what they can and cannot do.

Seems Q's usually moving wheels and audio threads in the G2 section to the wheels and audio sections, respectively. That seems pretty straight forward.

The conversation in the FS threads rule was put in place for exactly the reasons Graeme laid out. However I'd like to add another reason: I think the FS section is probably one of places (if not THE place) that had the most verbal arguments started. Usually it's around someone asking too much, someone questioning a sellers motives, etc. Not allowing banter in that section keeps it a straight up FS section. It also disallows potential for fighting.

The modding here is not done maliciously so I hope no one feels that it is. Or that it is targeted toward individuals or selectively enforced. I don't see it enforced that way, especially with Q. I don't think it's fair to say he's using no discretion because he's doing what he has been asked to do in the latest rules revision that everyone had input on.

I also really don't think it is fair or appropriate to take personal jabs at him or his car. I haven't posted pics or updates of my car in nearly 18 months yet no one is treating me as they are him? I expect better than that from this group - toward anyone on here...not just mods.
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Old 10-01-2013, 09:50 AM   #38
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The insistence that the moderators are enforcing the rules more than we ever have is indicative of a flawed memory or not being around in those days. I was a moderator through all of the periods of both .com and .org that Gabe outlined (very well, I must say), and I know how much moderating was done over those periods. While I am not here as often as I used to be, I do know how much moderating is being done now. Besides being that I was one of the moderators who was doing the work, my memory is clear on this because I was among the group that devised the rules and the infraction structure on .com even though I was always a proponent of self-moderating amongst the members. The enforcement of rules seemed unnatural but necessary because it was odd to me that adults were acting like children, and that there didn't appear to be a sense of keeping discussions on-topic in topic-specific threads and sections. There was no handbook on what rules to implement and enforce. All of the rules that have been implemented on .com and .org were from experiencing problems first-hand. If you look at the marketplace rules on .com, you will see that it is quite extensive. These rules were put in place because they were required and were indeed enforced.

It has been explained why the rules of the marketplace have recently seen an increase in moderating, and the discussion of these reasons were quite recent both here and on FB. It strikes me as odd that we are tasked with having to explain them again so soon after.

Additionally, we do not enforce rules only when prompted to by members of the forum - it isn't what determines "need"; instead, rules are enforced at all times and action is taken when we have noticed that they've been broken or a member of the community brings it to our attention.

You can rest assured that no one is specifically targeted for action more than anyone else. It is how we've always done it and it is the reasoning behind the insistence of having moderators who can enforce with as little bias as humanly possible. It's enough work having to justify fair enforcement of the rules that we do not desire the additional burden of having to deal with justifying unfair enforcement.
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:30 AM   #39
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Yet we still allow FS threads with no prices posted and "pm me for pricing info" to take place, yet they are "against the rules". I reported that thread weeks ago, no action taken. Innocent off topic chatter should be overlooked. If a compliment is made on a vehicle, leave it, it shows the community vouging for a vehicle or expressing interest. This isnt like someone was debating price etc. Saying "nice car glws" should NOT be against any rule. Its a bit over stepping imo. I see no harm in those comments. Yet Ive pointed out one blatant rule offense that nothing has been done about. Certain things like the topic being discussed in the thread where the OP stated he was okay with the comments that were removed, is case and point that certain things need a little leeway. Just my 2 cents, I have no horse in this race.
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:36 AM   #40
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Yet we still allow FS threads with no prices posted and "pm me for pricing info" to take place, yet they are "against the rules". I reported that thread weeks ago, no action taken.
No, we do NOT allow those posts. You and many other people reported that post, however it was a Part Out thread. The OP just happened to list a few parts available as well. Part Out threads do not require individual prices.
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