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Old 02-22-2013, 11:30 AM   #21
sr5guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJcars2 View Post
I don't see why everyone has to be a dick. The guy came here looking for help.
I don't see how his setup is 'half-assing everything'. So he picked a small turbo. It won't be good for top-end but shit he's only trying to run 7-10 psi.

It would be helpful to see the setup if he could post some pictures. If he has to use a 'hack way' to do it then so be it. It's temporary. I don't see the problem with adjustable/rising rate FPRs to do light tuning. No, it's not the most efficient, but it's safe if you know what you're doing. Tuning the ECU isn't the only 'right' way to do things. However, I don't believe in things like the Apexi AFC or map clips or anything of the sort. Those are just tricking the ecu and WILL fuck things up. That's what I consider 'half-assed'.
No one is being a dick! It appears you need a refresher course in general turbo mapping as well. I'm not gonna hold anyone's hand through that, there are THOUSANDS of articles on the net about proper mapping. I offered to help the guy do it the right way and he said he's gonna do it his way, so end of story. I'm not going to waste my time explaining things on deaf ears.

TURBOS AREN'T RATED BY HOW MUCH PSI THEY CAN GENERATE. This is the number one most ignorant statement _ever_ on the internet. You should be ashamed to call yourself a tuner if you believe this. A compressor map graphs AIR FLOW by Pressure with references to efficiency and compressor RPM. You have to do some math to get the numbers. There are calculators out there that can do it for you. Google is your friend!



A turbo that is designed to flow enough air to make 6PSI on a 2.0L motor wont make 2 PSI on a 3.2L motor. What happens when you put a little turbo on a big motor is bad. The turbo goes outside of its efficiency range because your trying to push it to do what it cant and the turbo either "stalls" and doesn't make any boost, or over-spins and blows chunks of the impeller inside of your motor. Please explain to me why I should waste time helping someone that doesn't grasp these basic concepts and is unwilling to learn them?

The Map clip hack is REQUIRED to run boost on the stock ECU (without internal modifications). The stock ECU will go into limp mode if it sees anything from the MAP sensor slightly over atmospheric pressure (~.5 PSI). Limp mode = 4000RPM rev limit, extremely bad drive ability.

Tuning with an EMS or ECU is not the only way to tune a turbo, but it's the only RIGHT way. And I'll tell you one reason why. Timing. You can't change timing without getting into the ECU/EMS. You can't turbo a high compression Legend motor *RELIABLY* without reducing the timing when boosting.

Sounds like you have some things to learn still, do you think it's a good idea to call someone that is willing to point you in the right direction a dick?

-Matt
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:51 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sr5guy View Post
No one is being a dick! It appears you need a refresher course in general turbo mapping as well. I'm not gonna hold anyone's hand through that, there are THOUSANDS of articles on the net about proper mapping. I offered to help the guy do it the right way and he said he's gonna do it his way, so end of story. I'm not going to waste my time explaining things on deaf ears.

TURBOS AREN'T RATED BY HOW MUCH PSI THEY CAN GENERATE. This is the number one most ignorant statement _ever_ on the internet. You should be ashamed to call yourself a tuner if you believe this. A compressor map graphs AIR FLOW by Pressure with references to efficiency and compressor RPM. You have to do some math to get the numbers. There are calculators out there that can do it for you. Google is your friend!



A turbo that is designed to flow enough air to make 6PSI on a 2.0L motor wont make 2 PSI on a 3.2L motor. What happens when you put a little turbo on a big motor is bad. The turbo goes outside of its efficiency range because your trying to push it to do what it cant and the turbo either "stalls" and doesn't make any boost, or over-spins and blows chunks of the impeller inside of your motor. Please explain to me why I should waste time helping someone that doesn't grasp these basic concepts and is unwilling to learn them?

You're being a little ignorant in that fact that you're assuming that I don't know what a compressor map is, or how a turbo works. I understand that the turbo is too small, however, I've seen personally, cars run this turbo on 2.5l+ 6 cylinders (Granted it was an OE upgrade). Saab uses a similarly sized turbo for their factory v6, as does volvo with their 5 cylinders. Obviously, it's not a turbo to make power with. It has it's limits that are quickly exceeded. If he isn't trying to make more then 300-350 I see no issue with the size of turbo he chose as long as he doesn't try to push the turbo way over it's limits.

The Map clip hack is REQUIRED to run boost on the stock ECU (without internal modifications). The stock ECU will go into limp mode if it sees anything from the MAP sensor slightly over atmospheric pressure (~.5 PSI). Limp mode = 4000RPM rev limit, extremely bad drive ability.

I understand this but I still don't like it. If you're going to boost a car, upgrade the map sensor, and do what you need to with the ECU, or go standalone. MHO

Tuning with an EMS or ECU is not the only way to tune a turbo, but it's the only RIGHT way. And I'll tell you one reason why. Timing. You can't change timing without getting into the ECU/EMS. You can't turbo a high compression Legend motor *RELIABLY* without reducing the timing when boosting.

Most car's I've turbo'd have had distributors, so this is something I have over looked on the G2 Legend. Dizzy's make life easier in some aspects. Timing is also arguable to how much boost you're running, the heat range of the plugs being used, the octane of fuel being used, but for the sake of the argument, lets say that you're right at this point.

Sounds like you have some things to learn still, do you think it's a good idea to call someone that is willing to point you in the right direction a dick?

Everyone always has something to learn and I will learn something new everyday till the day I die, as will everyone else as long as they aren't ignorant. I just feel that the way you came off was abrasive to someone looking for help on the tightly knit forum that we have.

-Matt
/rant
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:43 PM   #23
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I am a member of the thought process "If you can't do it right, DONT DO IT AT ALL!". I am entitled to that opinion, I am also entitled to pick and choose who I help and provide advice to based on that opinion. I chose not to waste time providing advice to someone that DOESN'T want it, which I gathered very quickly from the "hey lets just slap a turbo on here" attitude of the OP. There are plenty of other members on this forum, let them help him instead.

Good Day,
-Matt
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:45 PM   #24
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The small turbo presents multiple problems. The first problem is exhaust housing size and it's effect on exhaust manifold pressure. High EMAP= low HP.

Next is the concept of tuning. Here, if you cant control the timing the high EMAP bites you again. This is a train wreck straight to detonation city.

And we haven't yet talked about the compressor map. True rising rate fuel pressure regulators have their place, and that is usually in the bin. Here is another place it bites you. Injector compensation, that's dead time which includes opening and closing time and injector flow linearity in your ecu is based on a precise fuel pressure differential. That is the fuel pressure differential designed into the fuel system by Honda . Which will typically be 200kpa.

Using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator will cause you endless hassles.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:31 PM   #25
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A nitrous set up would of been cheaper and a whole lot more easier. Not to mention power at the flip of a switch without affecting over all reliability of your daily driver. The whole reason why I have not gone forced induction YET.
Matt is the key to unlocking the ecu. With out Matt you have to go stand alone.
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